INTERVIEW with SYED NIZAMI

(A1) SYED NIZAMI: This place is called "Arampur" and this "dargah" is called "Makhdum." The full name is "Astani Aliya Halda Makhdum Shah Wahid Chisti."

(Q2) INTERVIEWER: Ok, would you please tell us what that long name means.

(A2) SYED NIZAMI: "Astani Aliya" means "where the hazarat (his highness) is present." His highness' name is Halda Makhdum Shah Abdul Wahid Chisti. He was a holy and wise man (buzurg). Among Muslims you have various degrees of spiritual advancement. One such degree is "Makhdum." It comes under the category of "Aliyah." This is the degree he possessed. He arrived here in 747 hizri (after the hijra from Mecca).

(Q3) INTERVIEWER: What is a "dargah?"

(A3) SYED UMAR: When a holy man like Makhdum Saheb dies and is buried at a location-that particular location comes to be called a holy "dargah" after his soul has attained unity (Uras) with the Almighty. A "dargah" is also called a "Dastana" (a place of renown). The name of a "dargah" tells you the lineage of that particular saint.

(Q4) INTERVIEWER: Was he [Makhdum Saheb] a mystic (sufi)?

(A4) SYED NIZAMI: Yes.

(Q5) INTERVIEWER: Of what kind? What was special about him?

(A5) SYED NIZAMI: His special quality was that he was not a native of this place. He came from Nodinpura, in Gadirpura. There's a story about that too. He and his three brothers were all accomplished mystics. Their father owned a pomegranate orchard. One the four brothers went there and Makhdum demand a pomegranate from the gardener-but the gardener refused, saying that their father had forbidden anyone from taking the fruit. But Makhdum insisted and the gardener relented and he plucked one. Later when their father checked and found a pomegranate missing the gardener told him "One of your sons took a piece of fruit." At the breakfast table, the father asked which of his sons had plucked a fruit from the orchard and the sons replied, "The pomagranate is still there." When their father went back and checked he found out that this was indeed true. Then he realized his sons had become great saints. The father then told his sons, "Two lions cannot live in the same forest. I was a holy man (faqir) and now you have become holy men yourselves. So now depart and spread Islam. Tell people about Islam." To decide who was going to go where they had an achery contest-each son would start at the place where is arrow fell. Makhdum's shot landed near that tamarind tree over there in 747 hizri. Another brother's arrow fell in Jamania and another's in Sasram and the final brother's arrow fell right where he was so he stayed right there. When Makhdum came here, Raja Vicitra was in power and he told Makhdum to leave the area, accusing him of converting Hindus to Islam. Makhdum replied, "Brother, I am simply a faqir, sitting here quietly. I am not doing you any harm." To test Makhdum, the king sent a prostitute to him with the instructions for Makhdum to make her to pray because he knew that a real faqir would never do that to a living person since it would be deadly. Makhdum refused twice but the third time he had to since the king threatened to evict him. When the prostitute, who had been brought to Makhdum wrapped in a shroud-was taken back to the king's palace it was discovered that she was indeed dead. Her tomb is also here, in the back. When the king sent the prostitute's corpse back to Makhdum with orders to bring her back to life, Makhdum refused, saying, "The arrow that has been shot never comes back"-meaning that he could not bring a person back to life. After he passed away, it was discovered that the prostitute's tomb had it's "foot side" touching the "head side" of Makhdum Saheb's tomb-but miraculously the prostitute's tomb shifted on its own and corrected this disrespectful position. This is the living miracle of his highness Makhdum Saheb.

(Q6) INTERVIEWER: Do people come here year after year?

(A6) SYED NIZAMI: Yes, they have been coming here for years.

(Q7) INTERVIEWER: Why do they come here? What do they do?

(A7) SYED NIZAMI: They come here to request a boon, believing that their wish will be granted.

(Q9) INTERVIEWER: How do they pray?

(A9) SYED NIZAMI: They recite the Fatiha (the opening chapter of the Quran). They bow after covering their head with a cloth and then they read the Fatiha. In evening, the Kulsharif takes place and on Friday verses from the Quran are recited. After that "Salam" is performed. "Salam" is our Muslim way of praying, it is our prayer.

(Q10) INTERVIEWER: Do people practice circumambulation (parikrama) after saying the Fatiha-like many Hindus do?

(A10a) SYED NIZAMI: No-there isn't any circumambulation-no tawaf.

(A10b) SYED UMAR: No, they should actually. There is no ban on it. It is done at the dargahs of saints (Vali). The Holy Quran says [Arabic ommitted] "They (valis, saints) have no hunger or fear. They are free from everything." Allah gives them food and drink in their graves, just as in the world. They also eat and drink, pray and observe the Ramadan fast inside their graves. They're sitting there-it's just that we can't see them. The Holy Quran says that those who have become martyrs in the path of Allah are alive not dead. They should not be thought of as dead. Our eyes do not have the power to see them, that's all. Near Allah, they are alive. We cannot consider our Quran to be wrong because if we do then we are not orthodox. We are banned from Islam then. The Quran tells us what is wrong and what is right. It came into this world to show the most direct path, the path laid down by Allah.

(Q11) INTERVIEWER: Why do people place water bottles here?

(A11) SYED NIZAMI: If someone has an illness, has pain in the stomach or somethingor if a woman is about to give birth, then they bring this water so that Makhdum Saheb can bless it and by drinking it they can get well. Even incurable diseases can be cured.

(Q12) INTERVIEWER: Do they placed water only in glass bottles or in something else?

(A12) SYED NIZAMI: They can also use a gallon tank if they need more water.

(Q13) INTERVIEWER: Why are the kerchiefs tied around the tree here?

(A13) SYED NIZAMI: There is a tradition in which people tie a kerchief around the tree as a symbol of a vow or wish that they make here. Once this vow or wish is fulfilled they untie them and pay someone to perform the fatiha or do a forty ritual called the chilla or they feed the poor or pay for the fatiha of others, etc.

(Q14) INTERVIEWER: Could you explain something about Makhdum being alive but his corpse being here.

(A14) SYED UMAR: See, the soul never dies, only the body does because Allah made the body of Adam with dust, hence dust becomes dust at death. We are all-you as well as well as I-sons of Adam. Allah says: "I have given birth to human and jinnat for my worship." We all worship Him, in our own ways. We read the Holy Quran, you read the Bible, Hindus read the Gita and the Ramayana. There are two kinds of worlds-Baqa and Fana. This world is Fana-it will end some day. The Baqa world does not end. That is where saints like Makhdum live after dying in this world. They are dead in the Fana world but alive in the Baqa. We believe that the body of accomplished faqirs does not decompose but we haven't dug them up to test that. Allah states that Alim never dies and a Hafiz-i-Quran (someone who has memorized the entire Quran) never rots-his body will never be eaten by worms. Allah takes their soul from their body and gives them a body in the Baqa world. In Unnar is the tomb of Makhdum Shah Shafir Mutullalai whose body has been kept in the open-wrapped only in a shroud-for the last five hundred years and even the shroud has not decomposed. I have seen this with my own eyes.

(Q15) INTERVIEWER: Why do people remove their sandals when they come to the dargah?

(A15) SYED UMAR: Because it is a pure place and sandals are dirty.

(Q16) INTERVIEWER: Do they also light incense sometimes? Why do they bring flowers?

(A16) SYED UMAR: The incense is for fragrance and flowers are [placed] because flower will beg Allah for his mercy and His grace as long as it does not wither away. Everything in nature begs for Allah's mercy, including plants.

(Q17) INTERVIEWER: Do the people who come her also shave their heads?

(A17a) SYED UMAR: No.

(A17b) SYED NIZAMI: That happens in the abode of Shastri Brahm, not here. Hindus and Muslims come here, but in Islam bowing down to anyone other than Allah is prohibited. We do not bow even to our beloved prophet. We are only allowed to place our hand on the tomb and then kiss our hand as a sign of respect.

(Q18) INTERVIEWER: What is the building near the dargah.

(A18a) SYED NIZAMI: It is a mosque.

(A18b) SYED UMAR: The mosque is our place of worship just as you have a church.

(Q19) INTERVIEWER: Could you please tell us something about your lineage?

(A19a) SYED NIZAMI: We are descended form his highness from generation to generation, from his son down. Recently, my maternal uncle Shah Shabir Husayn passed away. He was the last of Makhdum Saheb's direct descendents. Since we belong to Shah Shabir Husayn's grandfather's line, so from now on lineage will continue from the grandmother's side.

(A19b) SYED UMAR: It is now on our grandgather side since it was the grandmother's side of my father. This lineage will go on-now the bloodline will go from our side, not his (Syed Nizami's).

(A19c) SYED NIZAMI: If I have sons then whose bloodline will they belong to? They too would..

(Q20) INTERVIEWER: I see, I see-all descendents from Makhdum Saheb.

(A20) SYED UMAR: Yes, we are all from his extended family.

(Q21) INTERVIEWER: Could you explain something about the Chistis?

(A21) SYED UMAR: All this about Chistis and Kadarias started from Baghdad in Iraq. That is where the first Chisti tomb is. All lines of saints descend from them. The one is Baghdad is the foremost pir (spiritual guide).

(Q22) INTERVIEWER: Did he undergo any special training.

(A22a) SYED NIZAMI: I couldn't understand your question.

(A22b) SYED UMAR: What he is asking is whether there was any disciple of the Chisti line.

(A22c) SYED NIZAMI: No, no since he was in our extended family. My maternal grandfather's father was a disciple of Chisti. This line came down to my father and after him.

(Q23) INTERVIEWER: What is this locality called?

(A23a) SYED NIZAMI: Mianpur.

(A23b) SYED UMAR: From the name Mian Saheb.

(Q24) INTERVIEWER: Who else lives here?

(A24) SYED NIZAMI: A lot of Qureshis and Ansaris. We are Sayeds.

(Q25) INTERVIEWER: Can you tell me something about Arampur?

(A25) SYED NIZAMI: It is a historical place, dating from 747 hizri. The abode of Shastri Brahm is part of this history too as is the shrine to Bakhtiyar Khilji.

(Q26) INTERVIEWER: What would you like to say to American students about India?

(A26) SYED NIZAMI: We would like to say that India is a guru to the world. All religions-Buddhism, Jainism-have their world centers here-I mean they were established here. Our distinctive quality is our capacity to assimilate foreign culture and civilization and make it our own. For example, first came the Aryans, then the Muslims and so the Aryans took something from the Muslims. Next came the British from whom we learned English. When the Muslims came, we learned Persian from them. This proves that we had the power to assimilate. We would like to give American students the message that they should also try to develop in themselves this power to assimilate. Just as you have come here to learn something, so should they benefit from this.